Personal Life Media

Transcript

Announcer: This program is intended for mature audiences only.
Judy Silber: From One Taste Urban Retreat Center in San Francisco, we bring you A Taste of Sex reality audio, a podcast that features personal revelations, stories and perspectives from people engaged in the active exploration of connection, conscious sensuality, and relationship.

This week, the second half of The Art of Seduction. We'll hear a story of the ultimate seduction, and an interview with a man who says that seduction is his higher calling.

I'm Judy Silber.

Join us, and turn on.

[musical interlude]
On the one hand, seduction implies sleazy. Or if not sleazy, then smooth, as if the person doing the seduction has insincere intentions. On the other hand, if you are seduced by someone you like, that's clearly a good thing. The thing about seduction is that, to be successful, the seducer must bypass their target's resistances. This is the nature of seduction. You are pulling people past their natural defenses, often towards something that they want to do, but are afraid of.

[musical interlude]
A story of the ultimate seduction.

My most significant story of seduction took place one night in San Francisco. In a part of town called North Beach. I went on a date with a guy whom I had resisted for a long time. I was actually quite attracted to him, but never allowed myself to admit it. I was scared. Maybe I knew that if I fell, if I let myself go with him, I would fall hard. I had taken BART from the East Bay where I worked, and as I exited the station, I saw him sitting in the bed of his Ford truck, talking on the phone. I climbed up, sat down, and he took my hand, and began caressing it.

We drove to North Beach, and went to dinner at an Italian restaurant. He asked a lot of questions, and was interested in my answers. I asked questions, and he answered them thoughtfully, as though he really wanted me to understand. We went for dessert at a cafe. Standing at the class counter, peering at the tiramisu, he stood behind me and pressed his body into mine. It was in that moment I knew that I was a goner. All of my defenses collapsed. We ordered, sat down with our dessert, and he asked: "How far do you wanna go?"

The boldness of the question impressed me, I pretend not to understand. "What do you mean?" I asked. Instead of backing off, he became bolder. He leaned forward to kiss me, and though I was shy, and conscious of displaying affection in a public place, I totally got lost in that kiss.

On the way home, we stopped for gas. He got out of the car, then poked his head back in, and kissed me again. And again he impressed me. With his assumption that I would want to be kissed, and doing it so casually, as if he had rights. Later that night, lying on my bed, it became clear that a third entity had entered the room. That third entity was my desire. All of the desire that I had suppressed my whole life, because I was too embarrassed and shy, because I felt  shame for what I wanted, because I feared that I could never have it anyway, so why bother to want what you cannot have. All of it, and I mean all of it, every last ounce of desire, passion, ambition, craving and love came spilling out of me. We could both see it. And we were both terrified.

It took nearly two years of wrangling to sort that night out. I wanted to give the guy credit for all of my desire. He insisted it had nothing to do with him. He said it was something that he had helped tease out, but my desire was not actually for him. We argued and argued about this. Finally I realized, it really didn't have anything to do with him. In a sense, he was merely the locksmith. The one who knew the combination to a place that had been buried deep inside, for a long, long time.

That still didn't solve the problem of what to do with my desire. The process of coming to know desire can be terrifying. Once it's out, you realize you cannot live your life the way it was, because your body and mind will no longer accept it. On the other hand, it can take time. Or at least it did for me. To have grown to a place where I could begin to actually realize what I wanted, and hold it as good and right.

To be honest, it's still something that I'm working on. I suspect it is a story that will continue until the end of my life.

[musical interlude]

Judy Silber: Kal Holtzler is one of those people whom you instantly like. He has a way of paying attention to you, where you really feel like he cares. And even though you know it's not just you that he cares about, it doesn't matter. You know that he sees you for who you really are, and in that, you feel special. So it's not surprising that women flock to him. But for Kal, seduciton is much more than a way to boost his ego. It's a higher calling to connection. Even to spirituality.

Okay, so here's my question: Is... are you, are you always seducing people, like, in every interaction, are you, is there a level of seduction, or do you pick out certain people and say, "Okay, I'm going in there."?

Kal Holtzler: It's usually not even a choice per se, I always saw my body, my system, my being, almost like this electric, pulsating, with all these different frequencies, like when I have an image in my head, like, it looks like with lots of different colors there's these like lights and there's all these different frequencies shooting up and down, and all of a sudden, one of these parts in me will get activated by another person. Some people call that attraction, and it is a level of attraction, it's almost like being pulled to somebody. And... in my head, it's almost like, okay, here's the next play, here's the next game, here's the person that wants to engage.

Judy Silber: So, there's a switch that gets activated?

Kal Holtzler: There's something in me that gets activated, and something that they need to give me, and something that I need to give them...

Judy Silber: And then when that happens, do you have a goal? Do you know what your goal is when that happens, or do you just... follow?

Kal Holtzler: Oh, I'd say the only goal is to just play and engage as fully as I can. And that's taking a tremendous amount of risk, which most of the time when I do that, I make enemies. People get jealous, people think that I want to take something from them, people, a lot of the times, people interpret that as I'm taking something that will benefit me. And most of the time, it even hurts me. And that's something that has always been hard to explain, because most people looking from a superficial level they want to have many women around them. That, me, naturally, I'd rather sit by myself, meditating. There's a story that I had in Israel.

I would bump into the same woman over a period of three months. In different sides of the country, I would sit in a bus up in the north side in Israel, and all of a sudden I was sitting in a bus and she was sitting in front of me, then I would be in the Old City, she would be walking down the street. Then I was at a friend's wedding, in a religious environment, and she was the waitress. I took her aside, and I told her "this is what's been happening, I don't know if you've noticed me, but, I know there is something that needs to happen between us." And it goes against all rules, she was...

Judy Silber: What was it that needed to happen?

Kal Holtzler: What needed to happen started to happen. We had a conversation for the next five hours, and it was the first time she told somebody that she was being sexually abused by her brother. There was something, I mean, she was laying in my arms, crying like a little child, like never before.

Judy Silber: So, give me this scenario, so, you meet someone, the switch goes on, your internal switch goes on saying that "Okay, I'm going in", and then what?

Kal Holtzler: I start engaging with the person, and then I just go with the energy and start flirting with the person, seeing if they respond...

Judy Silber: So you start where they are...

Kal Holtzler: Right...

Judy Silber: So they might be on some very superficial... flirty level...

Kal Holtzler: I'm very cute, they want a boyfriend. I'm very... I'm the cute guy and the popular guy, and they want to get to know me. They want to spend time with me, or whatever the process is. And when I listen to women, there's almost... I feel like they're talking to me... Like, it's automatic I know that they're going to say what they're going to say, and I can respond to it because I understand that particular game because I've been there.

Judy Silber: So, then you're just saying that you can respond to whatever it is that they're putting out, and then in that way, you can dive underneath it, and find out what it is that really wants to be discovered...

Kal Holtzler: Right...

Judy Silber: I mean, is that what you're saying?

Kal Holtzler: Yeah, yeah. I have this Kabbalah because, I mean, I can remember now offhand four or five other women that have told me in the last half a year "but, you lied to me." And the lie is, sometimes, something that they are not aware of. It's almost like walking down a road, I've walked down the whole road and I know everything that's gonna come. And they're only halfway down. And I have to be with where they are, but I also have the point of reference of knowing where it's leading.

Judy Silber: So, what's the lie? The lie is that you start off... perhaps pretending that you'll...

Kal Holtzler: The lie is that I'm withholding information from them.

Judy Silber: So you know that you're not going to be their boyfriend, but you'll say, like, "Oh, well, maybe" or you'll give the appearance of "maybe", is that it?

Kal Holtzler: Not necessarily, I would just tell them that I'm not, I'm not concerned with what's going to happen later on, that I'd rather explore what's happening right now, and explore what does it actually feel like to be as vulnerable as possible.

Judy Silber: So, some people would have a problem with that, because they would say that you were leading her on.

Kal Holtzler: I actually was. But I also know what she actually wants.

Judy Silber: And what does she want?

Kal Holtzler: Connection. If she wanted the same game, I know she would not come to me. She would find a good Jewish boy, she would find somebody she can actually have as a boyfriend, move into their house, and have a cute boyfriend.

Judy Silber: So what's the point then, so they get the connection, but then the connection is broken, right, because you're not going to be who they want you to be, so then what is the point of it?

Kal Holtzler: When it's broken, they will actually have what they actually wanted, which is not necessarily the pain of letting go of the story, but being able to go to the next place.

Judy Silber: Okay, the next place being what?

Kal Holtzler: To be able to trust more people. It's almost like they allow themselves to have this new point of reference for relationships.

Judy Silber: Ah, so through you they can learn to trust, they can learn to open, and then when they go on to the next relationship, they're that much farther along...

Kal Holtzler: Right...

Judy Silber: In terms of having moved through fear so they can actually connect at a deeper...

Kal Holtzler: Having had the experience of letting go of story, and just experiencing connection.

Judy Silber: You've been listening to A Taste of Sex. We'll be back after this short break.

(commercial)

Judy Silber: Welcome back to A Taste of Sex. We'll continue on our theme of seduction.

I'm Judy Silber.

I want to go a little bit into your personal history...

Kal Holtzler: One of my favorite topics.

Judy Silber: Well, it's about you, so...

(laughter)

Judy Silber: How did you come to have this... particular skill?

Kal Holtzler: I grew up in a home with twelve siblings, and in a huge, very close family in a small community up in New York, and left home really young, got involved with some crazy people and crazy things, a lot of drugs and alcohol, and there were years of... I mean, growing up as a child was this mystical, part of myself that I was constantly in touch with. There were times when I wouldn't talk for weeks. There were times when The Psalms, I would finish it from cover to cover every few days. And then there would be times as a kid where I was reading these books that were interested in Judaism, in in Kabbalah, study until you're forty, all these different books... So I had all these crazy idea and there was this tremendous amount of yearning and devotion that somehow was an expression of myself.

Judy Silber: How did the knowledge in Judaism, Kabbalah, how did that apply to seduction?

Kal Holtzler: What mysticism is in... Hinduism has the same thing, you have Sufism, you have all these different subgroups of different religions, and what I've always found is what is found in mysticism, it's almost like the game behind games. It's the unspoken rules of the universe. Laws of attraction, the laws of the karmic cause and effect of things...

Judy Silber: Oh, so you feel like you've learned the game...

Kal Holtzler: Right. One of the things that we talk about constantly is the orgasm that exists between two people, Eastern religions call it Pirhanna, call it presence, whatever it might be, but I feel like it plays to a point where, two people meet, before they actually speak a word. There is a connection that happens that can never be taken away. I mean, I had difficulties with this. It took almost four different relationships where I literally felt like I was dying, feeling the sensations of now, needing to let go of that story...

Judy Silber: The loss, the loss.

Kal Holtzler: Right. The loss of the story that I consciously invited into my system, making them a part of me. There was a part of me clinging...

Judy Silber: So, there was a part of you that didn't want to let go? There was a part of you that was hurt in having to actually let this person go, because you had, in a way, seduced yourself.

Kal Holtzler: Right. But that's what it means. I go into this game where there's a part of me that needs to lose perspective.

Judy Silber: Well, I was just going to say, why do you have to let go?

Kal Holtzler: Of the story?

Judy Silber: Yeah! Are you...

Kal Holtzler: I don't have to, other than that the name of the game means that they expand, that they actually walk into their power. And that will not be able to happen if I hold on to it. Now it's at a place where they trust more, and will be able to hold on to people in their lives, and now it's time for me to remove myself.

Judy Silber: It sounds lonely.

Kal Holtzler: (takes a deep breath) A big part of it is... I mean, there are times when... I mean, people come to me, and they ask me "How do you feed yourself?", "When do you receive?" (pause) And I must say that there's a big part of it that I can't answer. You can definitely hear in my voice, there's a vulnerable part in there, there's a lot of information or acumen that I have. I do know for years, growing up, as I was telling you before, having kids come talk to me and have other people open up to me... there's a certain... almost being an agent of something, of a greater power. So there is a part of me that feels almost like that's purpose? When I was eighteen, there was the desire... I wanted to die, those years after drugs and alcohol and there was no drive in me. And I remember there was this night in February, 2001 when I almost felt like being pregnant. Something inside of me ripped open. I remember laying on the street in Ocean Parkway, crying, and I hadn't cried for years, I was so numb. And I remember there was this light, I was observing myself from above, and it was the first time where I experience my mind being absolutely still. And it was the first time I experienced the physical sensation of fear of that. And from that point, there was something else starting to live through me. I remember when I was going through treatment, this guy came up to me and told me... I was going through this whole suicidal... Here I am, I couldn't drink anymore, I couldn't drug anymore, that wasn't working anymore. I was starting to wake up to these things, but had no idea where my life was going. Living with the remorse and the pain of the memories of my past. And he told me "maybe it's not worth living, maybe there is no point to it, but maybe one day there will be a person who will have the same exact experience that you had, and you will be the only one to save his life.

Judy Silber: Hmm.

Kal Holtzler: That shifted something in me that still has a momentum that life is not about me. I know how to gratify myself. I've been in the richest places in the world, I've been with people in power and politics, people that can just say something, and lots of people get affected by it. There's a certain sense that I know I can gratify myself, that I have no interest in it anymore. And, coming back to the loneliness, yeah. There're a lot of men in my life that I've encountered that don't actually get what I'm doing. Don't actually get what my engagement with people is. Or at least what the highest goal in relationships for me is. I hear feedback from people, saying "God, I'm so jealous, how do you have it so easy with people?"

Judy Silber: I'm going to assume that there must be women who open with you, and then, you both let go, and then she moves on, and then she finds a boyfriend. Because she's been with you, because she had that level of openness, then she was able to go on and have a level of openness with someone else, but this time it sticks. Is there ever regret on your part?

Kal Holtzler: No...

Judy Silber: Or anger?

Kal Holtzler: No, what I've found more is the satisfaction that there's something richer, something more in depth that can happen between them because of something that happened with me. It reminds me of the night a girl came up to me and reminded me of some of our interactions, and I'm standing there, and I'm almost... tears in my eyes, goosebumps going through my whole body, and so I'm reminded, "Oh, those are the moments, when I was eighteen years old, this is the sensation of awakening. This is the sensation of hearing how I impacted somebody. And it's constant. So I know I'm on the right track, I have no doubt about that. Knowing that, if I continue playing the way I've played, I know more people will benefit from it. I know the universe will be a better place, and I know it will bring more satisfaction to me.

Judy Silber: Thank you, Kal

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Judy Silber: Thank you for listening to A Taste of Sex. If you want to hear the first half of The Art of Seduction, go to personallifemedia.com, where you can also find transcripts of this show. For more information about One Taste, our lectures, classes, and workshops on connections, sensuality, and relationship, check us out at onetaste.us. Tune in next week.

I'm Judy Silber.